CHOICE ABOVE ALL OTHER LANDS
Book of Mormon Covenant Lands According to the Best Sources

A.I. and the Authentic Literary Setting of

the Book of Mormon

Romolo Simonetti and Vincent Coon

Summary: A conversation with Artificial Intelligence ChatGPT on the subject of the literary setting of the Book of Mormon. The conversation was started by Romolo Simonetti of Ontario, Canada. Romolo shared his preliminary inquiries, and A.I. results with author Vincent Coon of the United States. The two then pursued the authentic literary setting of the Book of Mormon using A.I. as a logic confirmation tool, with inputs from the best sources, that is, LDS scripture, and physical details about the Prophet Joseph Smith’s boyhood environment.

“And it came to pass that when he had poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the south - A chosen land, and the land of liberty.” (Alma 46:17)

Adapted from a map of ancient Lake Iroquois (Wikipedia)

Adapted from maps by author Phyllis Carol Olive

1. The “waters of Ripliancum … large, or to exceed all”, north of the “land of Cumorah” (Ether 15:8-11, Mormon 6:4-6). Cumorah resides in the Finger Lakes region of western New York according to LDS Doctrine and Covenants 128:20. AI identifies Ripliancum as Great Lake Ontario, which even in its diminished state, exceeds in size all of the Finger Lakes. Lake Ontario connects directly to “the great waters” of the Atlantic (LDS Doctrine and Covenants 118:4, Omni 1:16) via the St. Lawrence Seaway.

2. The “west sea” forms the western coast of the lands of “Bountiful”, “Zarahemla”, and “Nephi” (Alma 22:33; 50:11). The Book of Mormon “west sea” cannot possibly be thousands of miles distant from the land of Cumorah. How do we know this? A search party sent out from the land of Nephi in search of Zarahemla got lost in the wilderness, “traveled in a land among many waters” (Mosiah 8:7-8; Mormon 6:4) and having found “a land which had been peopled and which had been destroyed, … supposed it to be the land of Zarahemla …” (Mosiah 21:25-26) Thus we see that a land of the fallen Jaredites near Cumorah’s “land of many waters” (Mormon 6:4), was nevertheless near enough to the “west sea” to be mistaken for Zarahemla. AI identifies the Book of Mormon “west sea” as Great Lake Erie. Scripture may be telling us that “the people of Nephi” spread from there after a period of draught. (Helaman 11:20) Why would they have congregated near the west sea if it were salt water? Answer: The Book of Mormon west sea is not the Pacific Ocean. It is freshwater Great Lake Erie.

3. The “... narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land” (Ether 10:20) “… the west sea by the narrow neck which led into the land northward” (Alma 63:5) A.I. identifies “the narrow neck” as the Niagara Peninsula which is actually a divided isthmus.

4. A distant “land northward” having “large bodies of water and many rivers” (Helaman 3:3-4); including a “land northward” bounded by “large bodies of water” in each of the cardinal directions, each referred to as a “sea” (Helaman 3:8). A.I. identifies the more distant “land northward” as Ontario, Canada, north of the Niagara Peninsula.

5. The “narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east” (Alma 50:34); A.I. identifies as the Batavia Moraine that divided diminished Lake Tonawanda into western and eastern parts.

6. The “line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea …” (Alma 22:32) A.I. identifies as a linear path on the Onondaga Limestone Escarpment.

7. A.I. identifies Buffalo River and its northern tributary Cayuga Creek as a plausible southern boundary of the land Bountiful, described as a Nephite “line which they had fortified” (Helaman 4:5-7).

8. The “the land which was between the land Zarahemla and the land Bountiful” (3 Nephi 3:23, Helaman 4:5) A.I. plausibly identifies as the land between Buffalo Creek to the south, and Cayuga Creek on the north.

9. An ancient lake or inland sea at the eastern end of Bountiful plausibly explains why the southern line of Bountiful was only “a day’s journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified …” (Helaman 4:7) compared to the “day and a half’s journey for a Nephite” along the northern Bountiful line (Alma 22:32).

10. The “river Sidon” (Alma 2:15, Mormon 1:10) A.I. plausibly identifies as Buffalo Creek/River. Sidon is never mentioned flowing northward through the lands of Bountiful and Desolation. Sidon as Buffalo Creek/River turns westward to the inland “sea”, and may have passed a port named after the ancient Mediterranean port city - Sidon. 10a. The ancient name “Jordan” is a characteristic river name, and contains the same Semitic root as the name “Jared”. The northern Nephite “city of Jordan” (Mormon 5:3) was likely named after a significant river that flowed through Jaredite lands. A.I. recognizes a plausible match with the Genesee River which descends northward to Lake Ontario from its headwaters far to the south in Pennsylvania.

11. The biblical “east sea” is a lake (Ezekiel 47:18, Joel 2:20). Similarly, the Book of Mormon “east sea” (Alma 50:13; 22:27) was likely a lake. A.I. recognizes a plausible match with the ancient lake that existed at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor. A.I. further recognizes the east to west running Cattaraugus River and its wilderness corridor as a fitting candidate for the Book of Mormon “narrow strip of wilderness” (Alma 22:27).

12. The “seashore” that the archaic Jaredite king Omer arrived at after traveling “eastward” from “the place where the Nephites were destroyed [Cumorah]” (Ether 9:3). A.I. concludes it is “indeed plausible” that the "seashore" mentioned in Ether 9:3 could have been a “shore of an ancient inland body of water, such as the arm of Lake Iroquois that extended into what is now the Montezuma Marsh and Cayuga Lake …”

The following is an abridgement of email conversations, supplemented with links and other informative material:

On Tue., May 21, 2024, 5:45 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote: …

So you have convinced me that AI’s output to you[r] input is not real intelligence.

Let’s work together Romolo, to help AI come to more logically defensible conclusions. To do this we need to make AI work in stages on smaller, better informed geographic problems …

So let[‘]s start over:

Ask AI what the most likely candidate for the waters of Riplicancum is based on the Book of Mormon, the LDS Doctrine and Covenants, and the fact that the hill Cumorah is the same as the hill Ramah in Ether 15.

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The 1879 LDS Edition of the Book of Mormon identifies Lake Ontario as the Book of Mormon “waters of Ripliancum” north of Cumorah. Regarding these “large” waters, Ether 15:8 (pg. 606), footnote c reads: “supposed to be Lake Ontario.” This footnote in the 1879 Edition, is based on the scriptural location of Cumorah. (LDS Doctrine and Covenants 128:20)

From: Romolo Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2024 4:29 PM To: Vincent Coon Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen Subject: Re: Book of Mormon Topography

Hi Vincent,

So, I asked AI the full question, I can break it down later. Below is the response to the full question. Also where is the map of all the locations you pin point at? Was trying to find it again. Thank you 😊

Given that the hill Cumorah is in the Book of Mormon land Cumorah, in a land of many lakes, springs and waterfalls (Mormon 6:2-6); and given that the hill Cumorah is the same as the hill Ramah (Ether 15:8-11), and that the land Cumorah is in the Finger Lakes region of western NY according to LDS Doctrine and Covenants 128:20, what nearby ancient body of water (larger than any of the Finger Lakes) is the best candidate for “the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large or to exceed all” (Ether 15:8)?

Answer Below

[1]

Given the description in the Book of Mormon of "the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large or to exceed all" (Ether 15:8), and considering the geographic and doctrinal context provided, the best candidate for this body of water in the Finger Lakes region of western New York would be Lake Ontario.

Reasons for Lake Ontario as the Best Candidate:

1. Size and Magnitude: Lake Ontario is significantly larger than any of the Finger Lakes. Its immense size aligns well with the description of "Ripliancum," interpreted as a vast body of water exceeding all others in the region.

2. Proximity to the Finger Lakes: Lake Ontario is located just north of the Finger Lakes region, making it geographically relevant.

3. Historical and Scriptural Context: In LDS Doctrine and Covenants 128:20, the land Cumorah is associated with the area around the Hill Cumorah, which is near the Finger Lakes. Lake Ontario, being close by, fits within the broader regional description.

Supporting Context:

• Hill Cumorah and Hill Ramah: The identification of Hill Cumorah with Hill Ramah in the Book of Mormon ties this location to significant historical events. The proximity of such a prominent hill to a major body of water would be logical and consistent with the descriptions.

• Land of Many Lakes: The Finger Lakes region, known for its numerous lakes and waterways, complements the description of the land Cumorah. Within this landscape, Lake Ontario stands out as the largest and most notable body of water.

Conclusion:

Lake Ontario fits the description of "the waters of Ripliancum" due to its vast size and its location relative to the Finger Lakes and Hill Cumorah. This interpretation harmonizes the scriptural references with the known geography of the region.

Ffhh

On Tue., May 21, 2024, 7:01 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Ok, now we are using AI as a tool of logical confirmation and not letting it run wild. We have given AI a hierarchy of authority to draw its conclusions from, i.e. LDS Scripture (input information) – not Orson Pratt’s opinions and not Brother Sorenson etc. Now if AI was really intelligent it would have answered that “ancient Lake Iroquois” = “the waters of Ripliancum”, but “Lake Ontario” will do.

If it[’]s ok with you, let[‘]s forget about sister Olive’s map (with my improvements) for a little bit. Instead, let[‘]s proceed holding fast to the scriptures as the iron rail input to AI. It[‘]s way too soon to ask AI where Zarahemla was. We next need AI to identify the best candidate for the Book of Mormon “west sea” using LDS Scripture and the fact that we have just concluded that Lake Ontario is the best candidate for the water[s] of Riplicancum. How should we input this Romolo?

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From: Romolo Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 4:23 AM To: Vincent Coon Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen Subject: Re: Book of Mormon Topography

Sounds good to me.

I found your map with ancient Lake Tonawanda

[Narrow Neck] (the YouTube link to Phyllis model is broken) found it from

[American Land of Israel]

So I asked AI:

According to the information known based on our discussion where would be the best candidate for the West Sea. Please also consider as a possibility ancient lakes that may have existed between 600 BC and 400 AD.

Here was the response

[2]

When considering the best candidate for the "West Sea" in the context of the Book of Mormon, particularly in relation to the Finger Lakes region and the Hill Cumorah, there are a few factors to consider:

1. Geographic Context: The West Sea would need to be a significant body of water to the west of the primary locations described in the Book of Mormon.

2. Historical Context: The body of water should plausibly have existed between 600 BC and 400 AD, considering potential changes in geography and water levels over time.

Best Candidate for the West Sea:

Lake Erie emerges as the best candidate for the West Sea based on the following considerations:

1. Proximity and Direction: Lake Erie is located to the west of the Finger Lakes region and Hill Cumorah. It fits the directional requirement of being the "West Sea."

2. Size: Like Lake Ontario, Lake Erie is one of the Great Lakes and is significantly larger than the Finger Lakes. This matches the description of a major sea or body of water.

3. Historical Continuity: Geological and historical records indicate that Lake Erie has existed in its current form for thousands of years, including the period between 600 BC and 400 AD. There is no evidence of major changes that would disqualify it as a candidate.

Ancient Lakes Consideration:

While considering ancient lakes that might have existed during the specified period, it is important to note that the Great Lakes, including Lake Erie, have been relatively stable in their size and presence for thousands of years. No significant ancient lakes larger than the Great Lakes are known to have existed in this specific region during the time frame in question.

Conclusion:

Given the available information and geographical context, Lake Erie stands out as the most plausible candidate for the "West Sea" mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Its significant size, western location relative to the Finger Lakes and Hill Cumorah, and historical continuity make it a fitting choice.

I don't think it knows about the ancient Lake [Tonawanda]

The “west sea” (Lake Erie) at sunset. The coast of the Book of Mormon sea has to be long enough to accommodate, at a minimum, the western coasts of the lands of “Bountiful”, “Zarahemla”, and “Nephi” (Alma 22:33; 50:11).

On Thu., May 30, 2024, 4:47 a.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

THANK YOU MUCH Romolo for asking and sharing the AI response, that given Cumorah in the Finger Lakes region (LDS D&C 128:20 etc.), the best candidate for the Book of Mormon “west sea” is Lake Erie. Could we please continue on with another inquiry?

Would you please ask AI what the best candidate for the Book of Mormon “narrow neck” is? Given that “the narrow neck” is probably an isthmus by “the west sea” (Lake Erie) according to Alma 63:5, and that it is likely divided by the waters of the inland sea, Lake Erie, near a location that is suitable for a “great city” (Ether 10:20). That there is no mention of the narrow neck leading into land southward, only that it “led into the land northward”, possibly because the isthmus was divided by the waters of the inland sea, and Book of Mormon peoples had to cross water in order to travel into land northward from the narrow neck.

We may also have to tell AI that the “narrow pass” or “narrow passage” is not the same thing as “the narrow neck”, and neither of these are the Book of Mormon “narrow strip of wilderness”.

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From: Romolo Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 4:30 AM To: Vincent Coon Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen Subject: Re: Book of Mormon Topography

Good morning,

Of course, I like seeing how AI responds. Thanks for showing the Book of Mormon Footnote showing Lake Ontario, that was pretty neat.

So, I didn't give AI any extra assumptions, I just carried on the conversation, here is what I came up with:

what [is] the best candidate for the Book of Mormon “narrow neck”?

ChatGPT

[3]

In the context of the Book of Mormon geography, the "narrow neck of land" is a significant feature that separates two larger landmasses. Based on the described location and surrounding geographical features, the best candidate for the "narrow neck" in the context of the Finger Lakes region and the Great Lakes would be the Niagara Peninsula.

Reasons for the Niagara Peninsula as the Best Candidate:

1. Geographical Features:

• The Niagara Peninsula is a strip of land that lies between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie.

• It forms a natural "narrow neck" that separates these two large bodies of water.

2. Size and Scale:

• The peninsula is narrow enough to fit the description of a narrow neck, yet significant in its strategic and geographical importance.

• It is approximately 30 miles wide at its narrowest point, fitting the description of a narrow land bridge.

3. Strategic Location:

• The Niagara Peninsula would have been a critical strategic point for ancient peoples, controlling access between the areas around Lake Erie and Lake Ontario.

• Its position would have made it an important transit route, fitting the Book of Mormon's descriptions of movements between lands.

Sounds like it concluded what you wanted.

Romolo

From: Vincent Coon Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 4:57 PM To: Romolo Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen Subject: RE: Book of Mormon Topography

Well there you go my friend! AI has just outlined the coast of the principal lands of the Book of Mormon in the scriptural Near Cumorah Setting – the authentic literary setting of the Book of Mormon! This setting fits the Mound Builder genre that mainstream American History and Literature scholars have decided the Book of Mormon should be categorized in.

You have shown that it is possible to determine the authentic literary setting based on LDS scripture - not archaeological proof.

Unlike others, we got the horse before the Lamanite cart – so to speak! Now that we have a reasonable candidate for the authentic literary setting of the Book of Mormon, we are now justified in going forth like Heinrich Schliemann, who first determined the authentic literary setting of Troy in Homer’s Iliad before putting shovels to the ground to see if there really was an ancient walled city of Troy in Asia Minor. Well – there was.

In our case, we are now justified in putting shovels to the ground to see if there really was an ancient earth and timber city of Zarahemla tens of miles eastward and inland from the coast of Lake Erie. Very similar cities and villages were built in the general area by the natives in later centuries. The ruins of some were still around in Joseph Smith’s boyhood days.

In order to better outline the location of the principal lands of Desolation, Bountiful, Zarahemla and Nephi – we would now have to input into AI geological and hydrological details that AI may not be so familiar with. E.g. ancient Lake Tonawanda, the Batavia Moraine, the Onondaga Limestone Escarpment, the Clarendon-Linden Fault, the Cautterogas [Cattaraugus] River wilderness corridor, ancient Lake Genesee, and other ancient inland seas (lakes) now reduced to marshes. For now it[‘]s enough to know that the north-western boarders of Bountiful, on the coast of Lake Erie, is a little south of the divided Niagara Isthmus. The northern boundary line of Bountiful runs something like 40 miles inland, east of Lake Erie, just above the Onondaga Escarpment. (Alma 22:32) So there you have it!

By the way I have actually succeeded in making cement (calcium oxide) from a piece of Onondaga Escarpment limestone by grinding it to powder and heating it with a torch! [Nephite Cement]

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An exhibit on display at the Rochester Museum and Science Center, NY, featuring a quote by Seneca leader Red Jacket, and a map of reservations in western New York following the 1797 treaty of Big Tree. The native peoples of these reservations are identified in LDS scripture as “the Lamanites”. (LDS Doctrine and Covenants 32:1-2) We may think of the words of Jacob son of Lehi, “... the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea. But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.” (2 Nephi 10:20-21) Truly, “great waters” separate the coast of Lehi’s covenant land of liberty (Alma 46:17, 2 Nephi 1:6-9) from the Old World (Eastern Hemisphere), and from Canada.

On Sat., Jun. 1, 2024, 11:50 a.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Romolo my Canadian friend,

May we carry on a little further with the general outline of the Book of Mormon’s literary setting?

Given that Generative Pretrained AI has selected Niagara Peninsula as the best candidate for “the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land” (Ether 10:20) in the Near Cumorah literary setting, What does AI conclude about the land northward, that connects with the Niagara Peninsula; which land has inland bodies of water (seas) is each of the four compass directions? (Helaman 3:8) Here are some important scriptural understandings that may help:

1. The B of M defines a “considerable distance” as a day’s march in the wilderness. (Alma 56:36-38). Therefore “an exceedingly great distance” (Helaman 3:4) doesn’t have to be thousands of miles, it could refer to hundreds of miles.

2. The expression “the whole earth” (Helaman 3:8) in LDS scripture does not have to mean global or planet wide. It can simply refer to the full extent of a local land or region (perhaps as far as the human eye can see). (e.g. Alma 38:7, Exodus 10:14-15)

Q: So traveling northward from the Niagara Isthmus for more than a hundred miles, what land or country best qualifies as having “large bodies of water and many rivers”? (Helaman 3:4)

Q: What land or country just north of the Niagara Isthmus has large inland seas on the south, on the north, on the west, and on the east? (Helaman 3:8) Perhaps you can see why I chose to refer to the literary setting of the Book of Mormon as “the Near Cumorah Setting” and not the Wester NY setting? Sister Olive came to agree with this.

THANK YOU!

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From: Romolo Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2024 7:19 PM To: Vincent Coon Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen Subject: Re: Book of Mormon Topography

Here are some more interesting insights from ChatGPT. I like how it describes all the Lakes and even lists Lake Simcoe, which is still pretty large. With this in mind So traveling northward from the Niagara Isthmus for more than a hundred miles, what land or country best qualifies as having “large bodies of water and many rivers”? (Helaman 3:4)

[4]

Traveling northward from the Niagara Isthmus (the Niagara Peninsula) for more than a hundred miles brings you into the region of southern Ontario, Canada. This area is characterized by its significant water features and extensive river systems, making it a fitting candidate for the land described in Helaman 3:4 as having "large bodies of water and many rivers." Reasons for Southern Ontario as the Best Candidate: Large Bodies of Water: Lake Ontario: Continuing northward from the Niagara Peninsula brings you further along the shores of Lake Ontario, one of the largest lakes in North America. Lake Simcoe: About 100 miles north of the Niagara Peninsula, Lake Simcoe is another significant body of water. It is a large, freshwater lake that would qualify as one of the "large bodies of water." Many Rivers: Rivers Flowing into Lake Ontario: The region is crisscrossed by numerous rivers and tributaries that flow into Lake Ontario, including the Humber River, Don River, and the Niagara River itself.

Trent-Severn Waterway: This historic waterway connects Lake Ontario to Georgian Bay on Lake Huron and passes through numerous rivers and lakes, including the Trent River and Kawartha Lakes. It epitomizes a region with many interconnected rivers and bodies of water.

Geographical and Environmental Context:

The region of southern Ontario is known for its fertile land, abundant water resources, and diverse ecosystems, fitting the description of a land rich in water bodies and rivers. Historical records and archaeological evidence indicate that this area has been inhabited for thousands of years, supporting the plausibility of it being a well-populated and significant area in ancient times.

Conclusion:

Southern Ontario, northward from the Niagara Peninsula, best qualifies as the land described in Helaman 3:4. This region, characterized by Lake Ontario, Lake Simcoe, the Trent-Severn Waterway, and numerous other rivers and lakes, fits the description of having "large bodies of water and many rivers." This geographical area aligns well with the scriptural account and provides a plausible setting for the events described in the Book of Mormon.

Given that what land or country just north of the Niagara Isthmus has large inland seas on the south, on the north, on the west, and on the east? (Helaman 3:8)

Given the geographical context provided, the land or country just north of the Niagara Isthmus (the Niagara Peninsula) that has large inland seas on the south, north, west, and east is Ontario, Canada. Specifically, southern Ontario fits this description well.

Large Inland Seas Surrounding Southern Ontario:

South:

Lake Erie: To the south of the Niagara Peninsula and southern Ontario lies Lake Erie, one of the Great Lakes.

North:

Lake Huron: To the north of southern Ontario lies Lake Huron, another of the Great Lakes.

Georgian Bay: Part of Lake Huron, Georgian Bay is also located to the north.

West:

Lake Huron: Extending further west, Lake Huron continues to border the western side of southern Ontario.

Lake St. Clair: This smaller lake lies to the southwest, connecting Lake Huron to Lake Erie via the St. Clair River and Detroit River.

East:

Lake Ontario: To the east of southern Ontario lies Lake Ontario, one of the Great Lakes.

Geographic Description:

Southern Ontario is a landmass bordered by these significant bodies of water, making it a region surrounded by large inland seas on all sides. This region includes the area north of the Niagara Peninsula and encompasses the vast land between these Great Lakes.

Conclusion:

Southern Ontario, Canada, north of the Niagara Peninsula, perfectly matches the description in Helaman 3:8 of a land with large inland seas on the south, north, west, and east. The Great Lakes (Erie, Huron, Ontario, and St. Clair) surround this region, making it a fitting candidate based on the provided scriptural and geographical context.

“And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.” (Helaman 3:8) “... the land north was called Mulek, which was after the son of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek [Malchiah] into the land north [Canada], and Lehi into the land south [United States of America].” (Helaman 6:10) The name “Mulek” is likely a shortened version of “Malchiah”; although the name “Mulek” is pronounced with different vowels and removes the name of the Creator originally appearing in “Malchiah”. In time, descendents of “Mulek, and those who came with him” (Mosiah 25:2) crossed the large waters of Ripliancum, Lake Iroquois (Ontario), arriving at the shore of the destroyed Jaredite nation near its bone scattered seat of power. (Alma 22:30, Ether 7:6) This American coast was referred to as “the place of their first landing”, possibly because the descendents of Mulek thereafter crossed a second large body of water (Lake Tonawanda) in the land of Desolation, landing a second time, thereafter to come “up into the south wilderness ... called Bountiful” (Alma 22:31). To this day, upon the “land south .. called Lehi” rests a great prophetic blessing, and also a terrible curse! (LDS Doctrine and Covenants 10:50-51, Alma 45:15-16) This land would become a land of pilgrims seeking religious freedom (1 Nephi 13:13), a land on which the American War of Independence would be fought (1 Nephi 13:16-20), a land on which a great Gentile nation would arise, fortified and freed from all other nations (1 Nephi 13:30, 2 Nephi 1:5-10, Ether 1:1; 2:7-12; 9:20), a land on which there would be “no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.” (2 Nephi 10:10-14) The government of Canada, by comparison, is best described as a constitutional monarchy justifiable before God as long as that government supports principles of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges of individuals. (LDS Doctrine and Covenants 98:5) Ontario, Canada (land of M-l-k), north of the divided Niagara Isthmus, is certainly part of the authentic American setting of the Book of Mormon - notwithstanding, it is a land separate from the blessed and cursed covenant land of Lehi and of the Jaredites (Ether 2:10-12). Driven by the pressures of civil war, the Jaredites left “desolate” their land which “they had before inherited”, and which “they had before inhabited” in Canada, and gathered to their “destruction” in their ancestral land south of Ripliancum (Helaman 3:3-6, Ether 14:19-23) on what would become United States soil.

On Sun., Jun. 2, 2024, 11:33 a.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Unexpectedly wonderous [wondrous] response! So my Canadian colleague – though many don’t know it yet – you are an inhabitant of the authentic Book of Mormon literary setting! I believe Book of Mormon peoples migrated to your country from the south. Understand that “land northward” is not the name of a particular place, but a relative designation used in scripture, requiring a particular frame of geographic reference, often given or implied in the scripture.

We don’t need to pinpoint exactly where Zarahemla was based on some alleged archaeological find, in order to outline, based on scripture, the authentic literary setting of the Book of Mormon. Generative Pretrained AI has just confirmed that for us.

If we don’t get the archaeological proof we want right away - tough beans! At least we have an outline of the covenant land setting based on scripture.

THAT MEANS, for instance, that I can have a pretty good idea (even a testimony) of where Mt Moriah is in Jerusalem, even though, to date, there is no strong archaeological proof that the temple Solomon built there ever existed.

That means that I can know where the land Cumorah is based on LDS D&C 128:20 and from there logically conclude an outline of the Book of Mormon’s literary setting (based on LDS scripture), whithout [without] needing archaeological proof. In fact, the archaeology should wait till we have a better idea of where to dig! Even then we should be mindful of professor Hugh Nibley’s admonitions:

"In view of the nature of their civilization one should not be puzzled if the Nephites had left us no ruins at all. People underestimate the capacity of things to disappear, and do not realize that the ancients almost never built of stone. Many a great civilization which has left a notable mark in history and literature has left behind not a single recognizable trace of itself. We must stop looking for the wrong things." (An Approach to the Book of Mormon, pg. 431)

"Blinded by the gold of the pharaohs and the mighty ruins of Babylon, Book of Mormon students have declared themselves "not interested" in the drab and commonplace remains of our lowly Indians. But in all the Book of Mormon we look in vain for anything that promises majestic ruins." (Hugh Nibley, An Approach to the Book of Mormon (Melchizedek Priesthood manual, 1957), appendix section titled "Looking for the Wrong Things", pp. 440-441)

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On Thu., Jun. 13, 2024, 9:20 p.m. Vincent Coon, <...> wrote:

Romolo,

ChatGPT has done an adequate job roughly outlining the literary setting of the Book of Mormon starting with the land Cumorah in the Finger Lake region. Much thanks for your help!

1. The expressions “land northward”, “land southward” are relative expressions in the Book of Mormon. They are not the names of particular places. The “land northward” simply means land that is northward relative to whatever frames of reference are set in the scripture. In the reference frame of Alma 22:31 the land “called Bountiful” is referred to as “the land on the southward”. In the reference frame of Helaman 4:5-8, however, “the land southward” refers to land south of Bountiful.

2. The “narrow neck of land”, the Niagara Isthmus (as concluded by AI ChatGPT) is divided by “the sea” i.e. “the west sea” (Lake Erie via Niagara River, Alma 63:5, Ether 10:20). The “narrow neck” therefore cannot lead into land southward because it is not a continuous, undivided bridge of land. It can only lead “into the land northward” relative to “the land Bountiful” (Alma 63:5).

3. The “narrow pass” (Alma 50:34; 52:9, Mormon 3:5) same as “narrow passage” (Mormon 2:29) is probably not the same as “the narrow neck of land”, because unlike “the narrow neck”, the “narrow pass” was a continuous, undivided bridge of land that could be travelled into either “the land northward”, or into “the land southward” (Mormon 2:29). Another reason why “the narrow pass” is probably not the same as “the narrow neck” is because the Niagara Isthmus situates between an inland sea on the south (Lake Erie) and another inland sea on the north of it (Lake Ontario). The “narrow pass” divided a sea (singular, not named in the Book of Mormon) into western and eastern parts, i.e. “sea, on the west and on the east” of “the narrow pass” (Alma 50:34). Another reason why “the narrow pass” should be considered different than “the narrow neck” is because the entrance to “the narrow pass” was considered to be more localized. It was referred to as a geographic “point” (Alma 52:9). The Niagara Isthmus, by contrast, is about twenty miles wide! Such a distance is more likely to be described in the Book of Mormon as a “line” (e.g. Helaman 4:7).

4. Ancient Lake Tonawanda extended eastward from the Niagara River to occupy the plain and basin between the Niagara Escarpment on the north and the Onondaga Escarpment on the south in western New York. Over time, as the lake diminished, the Batavia Moraine (a long, narrow dam like mound of till) became exposed. The narrow moraine divided Lake Tonawanda into western and eastern parts. See Geologist Heidi Natel’s thesis, 2004.

5. Question: Does AI ChatGPT agree that the Batavia Moraine could be described as “a small neck of land” (Alma 22:32), “narrow pass” (Alma 50:34; 52:9, Mormon 3:5), and “narrow passage” (Mormon 2:29)?

Sent from Mail for Windows

The Book of Mormon “narrow pass” as it exists today, a little north of the Onondaga Escarpment, near Batavia, NY (Bountiful).

An enlarged portion of an 1804 map of western NY. Tonawanda Creek (represented on the map) flows northward over the Onondaga Escarpment at “Indian Falls” into the basin that once held Lake Tonawanda. Note the pass (between the 13s) with wetlands on the west and on the east of it. Even in Joseph Smith’s days the Batavia Moraine was used as a pass through the marshy remnants of ancient Lake Tonawanda. “ ... by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.” (Alma 50:34)

A western NY historic marker posted just north of Indian Falls and the Onondaga Escarpment, not far from the Batavia Moraine which historically has served as a narrow passage through the marshy remnants of ancient Lake Tonawanda.

An enlarged portion of an 1804 map of western NY showing the site of New Amsterdam (later Buffalo city) built across from a neck-like extension of the Niagara Isthmus, near the place where Lake Erie first divides the isthmus as Niagara River. “And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.” (Ether 10:20)

Romolo <…> 6/13/2024 8:02 PM To: Vincent Coon Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen

So I just continued on with the conversation and stated only your question. It's states it's a plausible interpretation. I then asked at the end to give reasons why it may not be plausible, and I don't think it gave specific enough reasons. .... Question the Batavia Moraine could be described as “a small neck of land” (Alma 22:32), “narrow pass” (Alma 50:34; 52:9, Mormon 3:5), and “narrow passage” (Mormon 2:29)?

ChatGPT

The Batavia Moraine, located in western New York, could be described as "a small neck of land" (Alma 22:32), a "narrow pass" (Alma 50:34; 52:9; Mormon 3:5), and a "narrow passage" (Mormon 2:29) based on its geographical characteristics. Let's examine why this is a plausible interpretation:

Characteristics of the Batavia Moraine:

1. Geographical Features:

o The Batavia Moraine is a glacial landform consisting of accumulated glacial debris (moraine) created by past glacial activity.

o It forms a natural ridge or barrier in the landscape, which could act as a significant strategic or natural passageway.

2. Narrowness:

o The moraine is relatively narrow, forming a distinct neck of land that could be seen as a constricted area between larger expanses of land.

o Its narrowness fits the descriptions of a "narrow pass" or "narrow passage" mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

3. Strategic Location:

o Located in a region with significant ancient and modern transportation routes, the Batavia Moraine would have been a natural corridor or barrier that people would need to navigate through, making it a strategic location.

o This aligns with the scriptural references to critical military and travel routes.

Scriptural Descriptions:

"Small Neck of Land" (Alma 22:32):

The Batavia Moraine, as a distinct and narrow landform, fits the description of a small neck of land that separates larger territories.

"Narrow Pass" (Alma 50:34; 52:9; Mormon 3:5):

Its role as a natural corridor through which armies or travelers must pass makes it a plausible candidate for a narrow pass.This narrowness would be significant for strategic movements and military engagements, as described in the scriptures.

"Narrow Passage" (Mormon 2:29):

Similarly, the term narrow passage implies a restricted and strategic route, which aligns well with the geographical nature of the Batavia Moraine.Conclusion: The Batavia Moraine's geographical and strategic characteristics make it a fitting candidate for the descriptions of a "small neck of land," "narrow pass," and "narrow passage" found in the Book of Mormon. Its narrowness and strategic location within the landscape of western New York align well with these scriptural descriptions.

...

Is there any scriptural reasons or geographical in nature why this could not be plausible?

ChatGPT

Considering both scriptural and geographical reasons, there are several points to evaluate to determine if the Batavia Moraine is a plausible candidate for the "small neck of land," "narrow pass," and "narrow passage" described in the Book of Mormon. Here are key points to consider for and against its plausibility:

1. Size and Scale:

o Pro: The Book of Mormon describes the "narrow neck of land" as a crucial, strategic location that armies would pass through. The Batavia Moraine, being a narrow glacial landform, could fit this description.

o Con: The text implies a landform of considerable strategic importance that is large enough to be a significant barrier between larger territories. The Batavia Moraine might be considered too small or not sufficiently prominent to match this description, depending on interpretation.

• 2 Geographical Descriptions:

o Pro: The scriptural references to a narrow pass and narrow passage are consistent with a landform that acts as a bottleneck, which the Batavia Moraine could provide.

o Con: The descriptions in the Book of Mormon might imply a more extensive or more prominent geographical feature than the Batavia Moraine.

• 3 Location Relative to Other Landmarks:

o Pro: If the Batavia Moraine is considered within the context of the Finger Lakes region and western New York, it could serve as a plausible location for a strategic narrow passage.

o Con: The specific locations and distances between key landmarks in the Book of Mormon are not always clear, and the Batavia Moraine might not align perfectly with all scriptural descriptions of distances and relative positions.

Geographical Considerations:

1. Prominence and Recognizability:

o Pro: As a distinct glacial landform, the Batavia Moraine could serve as a recognizable geographical feature that fits the description of a narrow neck or passage.

o Con: The Batavia Moraine is not as prominent as other potential candidates, such as the Niagara Peninsula or other narrow landforms that might serve as larger barriers or more critical passageways.

2. Strategic Importance:

o Pro: The Batavia Moraine could have strategic importance in directing travel and military movements through a specific region.

o Con: Historically and geographically, other locations might have been more significant strategic barriers, such as the Niagara Peninsula or more prominent ridges prominent ridges and valleys.

Conclusion:

While the Batavia Moraine is a plausible candidate for the "narrow neck of land," "narrow pass," and "narrow passage" described in the Book of Mormon, there are some considerations that might challenge its fit:

• Size and Prominence: It may not be as large or prominent as other potential candidates.

• Strategic Importance: Other geographical features, like the Niagara Peninsula, may have more clearly defined strategic importance in the region.

Thus, while it is not implausible, other candidates might better fit the descriptions and context provided by the Book of Mormon. Further study and comparison with other geographical features in the region could provide additional clarity.: ...

Vincent Coon <…> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2024 5:09 PM To: Romolo Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen

Todah Rabah Romolo! This is real progress! But ChatGPT still potentially confuses “the narrow neck” and “narrow pass”. Hence it[‘]s concluding comments:

[See AI conclusion above]

This is why my scripture based inputs are so important to digest! If AI would create a truth table of the scriptures (like a matrix) and solve the information like a logic problem, it might perceive that it isn’t a question of whether “the narrow neck” is the Niagara Isthmus. The sea divided “narrow neck” clearly relates to the Niagara Isthmus. The Batavia Moraine is “the narrow passage” aka “narrow pass”. The “narrow pass” is “a small neck of land” that is undivided (in fact it divides an inland “sea”, Lake Tonawanda), the entrance of which is best described as a geographic “point” not a line. Its that simple! In other words, “the narrow neck” and “narrow pass” are two different but related geological features. The “narrow neck” (Niagara Isthmus) can be seen at the western end of the Desolation - Bountiful line (by Lake Erie, “the west sea”), and the “narrow pass” can be entered at the eastern end of the Desolation - Bountiful line near where modern Batavia resides.

Can you think of some way of communicating this information to ChatGPT to help it get over its “narrow neck” - “narrow pass” confusion? If so, ChatGPT may have greater capability, if we use it carefully.

Perhaps we can propose my scripture based inputs 1 though 3 (below) as a logical reconciliation of the Niagara Isthmus vs Batavia Moraine problem. In this case “a small neck of land” (Alma 22:32) accurately describes the undivided “narrow pass” (Alma 50:34; 52:9; Mormon 3:5) continuously connecting both “land northward” and “land southward” (Mormon 2:29). The “narrow neck of land”, on the other hand, is the Niagara Isthmus divided by “the sea”, Lake Erie. It leads into “land northward” (Alma 63:5) but not into lands southward because the Niagara River cuts through it (Ether 10:20)! From Bountiful, you have to cross the water to Canada to get on “the narrow neck”.

Vincent Coon <…> 6/23/2024 1:48 PM 7/2/2024 3:12 PM [resent by email] To: Romolo

Would AI ChatGPT please comment on the possibility that “the narrow neck” and “the narrow pass” mentioned in the Book of Mormon are two different, but neighboring geological features? Here is an introduction and numbered list of pertinent considerations: Introduction:

Could the Batavia Moraine be “the narrow passage” (Mormon 2:29) also known as “the narrow pass” (Mormon 3:5, Alma 50:34; 52:9)? This geological formation passes through marshy remnants of what was ancient Lake Tonawanda - an inland “sea” that extended eastward from the Niagara River (see 1 in numbered list below). By contrast, the “narrow neck of land” is literally divided by “the sea” (Lake Erie - Niagara River, Ether 10:20, Alma 63:5). The “narrow neck” matches the Niagara Peninsula, or at least a significant part of the divided Niagara Isthmus.

The “narrow neck” can be seen at the western end of the Desolation - Bountiful “line” called “the line Bountiful” (Alma 63:5; 22:32). The “narrow pass” (Batavia Moraine) can be entered near the eastern end of this “line” (Alma 52:9), near where modern Batavia resides. This location is about “a day and a half’s journey” inland from “the west sea” (Lake Erie, Alma 22:32-33).

The portion of “the narrow neck” that can be seen from the western end of “the line Bountiful” (Alma 63:5; 22:32) is the southern edge of the Niagara Peninsula (Isthmus). At the southern edge of the Niagara Isthmus is a portion of the Onondaga Escarpment.

The Desolation – Bountiful line described in (Alma 22:32, 3 Nephi 3:23) runs more or less parallel with the Onondaga Escarpment. So a portion of this linear east-west running limestone escarpment forms a natural dividing line between the land of Desolation north of the “line”, and the land of Bountiful on, and south of the “line” (Alma 22:30-32).

The Batavia Moraine starts from the Onondaga Escarpment near the town of Batavia NY, and ends in the Ontario Canada side of the Niagara Isthmus, west of the Niagara River divide (Geologist Heidi Natel’s 2004 thesis). Only a segment of the Batavia Moraine parted ancient Lake Tonawanda.

The following considerations 1 though 5 (below) are believed to reconcile the Batavia Moraine versus Niagara Isthmus “neck of land” controversy. In summary, the Batavia Moraine accurately describes the undivided “narrow pass” (Alma 50:34; 52:9; Mormon 3:5) which connects both “land northward” and “land southward” (Mormon 2:29). The “narrow neck of land”, on the other hand, is the Niagara Isthmus divided by “the sea”, Lake Erie (Ether 10:20). The “narrow neck” leads into “land northward” (Alma 63:5) but not into lands southward, because the Niagara River cuts through it (Ether 10:20). From the western shore of Bountiful, you have to cross over water to Canada to get on “the narrow neck”, to then trek into “the land northward”. The Book of Mormon never says that “the narrow neck” led into land southward. It was “the narrow pass” that led into both “land northward” and “land southward”. Here are the five considerations proposed to reconcile the Batavia Moraine, Niagara Isthmus “neck of land” controversy:

1. Ancient Lake Tonawanda extended eastward from the Niagara River to occupy much of the plain and basin between the Niagara Escarpment on the north, and the Onondaga Escarpment on the south in western New York. This is the land of Desolation “sea” mentioned in Alma 50:34, Mormon 3:7-8. Over time, as the prehistoric lake diminished, the Batavia Moraine (a long, narrow dam like mound of till) became exposed. The narrow moraine divided Lake Tonawanda into western and eastern parts. See Geologist Heidi Natel’s thesis, 2004.

2. The expressions “land northward”, “land southward” are relative expressions in the Book of Mormon. They are not the names of particular places. The “land northward” simply means land that is northward relative to whatever frames of reference are set in the text. In the reference frame of Alma 22:31 the land “called Bountiful” is referred to as “the land on the southward”. In the reference frame of Helaman 4:5-8, however, “the land southward” refers to land south of Bountiful. Thus the “land northward” relative to the entrance of “the narrow pass” (moraine by Batavia NY) mentioned in Alma 50:34; 52:9, is not necessarily identical to “the land northward” that “the narrow neck … led into …” (Alma 63:5).

3. The “narrow neck of land”, the Niagara Isthmus (as concluded by AI ChatGPT) is divided by “the sea” i.e. “the west sea” (Lake Erie via Niagara River, Alma 63:5, Ether 10:20). The “narrow neck” therefore cannot lead into land southward because it is not a continuous, undivided bridge of land. It can only lead “into the land northward” relative to lands further south, i.e. “the land of Zarahemla”, “the land Bountiful” and “the narrow neck” itself (Alma 63:4-5).

4. The “narrow pass” (Alma 50:34; 52:9, Mormon 3:5), same as “narrow passage” (Mormon 2:29), is probably not the same as “the narrow neck of land”, because unlike “the narrow neck”, the “narrow pass” was a small continuous, undivided bridge of land that could be travelled to either “land northward” (Alma 50:34; 52:9), or “land southward” (Mormon 2:29; 3:5). Another reason why “the narrow pass” is probably not the same as “the narrow neck” is because the Niagara Isthmus situates between an inland sea on the south (Lake Erie) and another inland sea on the north of it (Lake Ontario); whereas, the “narrow pass” parted a sea (singular, not named in the Book of Mormon) into western and eastern parts, i.e. “sea, on the west and on the east” of “the narrow pass” (Alma 50:34). Another reason why “the narrow pass” should be considered different than “the narrow neck” is because the entrance to “the narrow pass” was considered to be more localized. It is referred to as a geographic “point” (Alma 52:9). The Niagara Isthmus, by contrast, is about twenty miles wide! Such a distance is more likely to be described in the Book of Mormon as a “line” (e.g. Helaman 4:7) not a point. It should be noted however, that the diminished presence of ancient Lake Wainfleet (now Wainfleet Bog) on the Canadian side of the Niagara Isthmus could have formed a narrower neck on the Onondaga Escarpment between Lake Erie and Lake Wainfleet.

5. The “line Bountiful” with “the land Desolation” immediately north of “the line” (Alma 22:32) is a path that was “a day and a half’s journey” on the linear Onondaga Escarpment situating between what is now Batavia NY (east) and Lake Erie (the Book of Mormon “west sea”). The “narrow pass” (the Batavia Moraine, that divided ancient Lake Tonawanda into western and eastern parts, Alma 50:34) was near the eastern end of this “line”; whereas “the narrow neck of land” (Ether 10:20, Alma 63:5) was near the western end of this line (Alma 22:32-33). The southern edge of the Onondaga limestone formation forms the southern edge of the Niagara Isthmus, the very isthmus that is divided by the waters of Lake Erie (Niagara River) near the site of “a great city” (Ether 10:20).

In her 2004 master’s thesis, geologist Heidi Natel explains that the “Tonawanda Basin lies between the (Middle) Devonian Onondaga Escarpment and the (Middle) Silurian Lockport Escarpment to the north (Figure 1.).” (pg. 12)

From: Romolo Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2024 4:36 AM To: Vincent Coon Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting ( Population thoughts)

Hi Vincent,

Sorry for the long delay, I know what it's like trying to have a conversation when the other person doesn't participate. Very sorry my friend. So I provided this to Ai ChatGPT in addition to what was fed: "please comment on the possibility that “the narrow neck” and “the narrow pass” mentioned in the Book of Mormon are two different, but neighboring geological features?Could the Batavia Moraine be “the narrow passage” (Mormon 2:29) also known as “the narrow pass” (Mormon 3:5, Alma 50:34; 52:9)? Note it is proposed this geological formation passes through marshy remnants of what was ancient Lake Tonawanda - an inland “sea” that extended eastward from the Niagara River."

Here is the output:

[5]

"The possibility that "the narrow neck" and "the narrow pass" mentioned in the Book of Mormon are two different, but neighboring geological features is worth considering. If we interpret these terms as distinct yet related, it opens up the potential for the Batavia Moraine to be specifically identified as "the narrow pass" or "the narrow passage" as described in the Book of Mormon.

Distinction Between "Narrow Neck" and "Narrow Pass"

1. Narrow Neck:

Typically interpreted as a land bridge or a narrow strip of land connecting two larger landmasses.

Geographically, this could be a more extensive feature, such as the Niagara Peninsula, which separates Lake Ontario from Lake Erie.

2. Narrow Pass / Narrow Passage:

• More specific and localized than a "narrow neck," typically referring to a route through a narrow landform, like a valley or ridge, that provides a strategic pathway.

• This could be a smaller, more confined feature within a larger geographical context.

Batavia Moraine as "Narrow Pass" / "Narrow Passage"

1. Geographical Context:

The Batavia Moraine, located in western New York, is a glacial landform that extends through the region.

Historically, it passed through what was once Lake Tonawanda, an ancient inland sea, now largely marshy remnants.

2. Scriptural Alignment:

• Mormon 2:29 and Mormon 3:5 describe a "narrow passage" or "narrow pass" used for strategic military movements. The moraine's geographical characteristics could fit these descriptions.

• Alma 50:34 and Alma 52:9 reference a "narrow pass" that plays a key role in defense and travel. The moraine, acting as a natural corridor through marshy terrain, aligns with this strategic importance.

3. Historical and Environmental Considerations:

• The Batavia Moraine's passage through the marshy remnants of ancient Lake Tonawanda fits the description of a narrow and possibly treacherous route, enhancing its strategic value.

• The ancient lake would have served as a significant geographical barrier, with the moraine providing one of the few passable routes through the region.

Conclusion

The idea that "the narrow neck" and "the narrow pass" are two different but neighboring features is plausible and provides a clearer interpretation of the geographical descriptions in the Book of Mormon. In this context, the Batavia Moraine could indeed be "the narrow passage" (Mormon 2:29) or "the narrow pass" (Mormon 3:5; Alma 50:34; 52:9):

• 1. Narrow Neck: Could be a larger feature like the Niagara Peninsula, serving as a significant land bridge between larger bodies of water.

• 2. Narrow Pass / Passage: The Batavia Moraine, a distinct glacial landform passing through the marshy remnants of ancient Lake Tonawanda, fits the description of a narrow, strategic route.

This interpretation aligns well with both the scriptural descriptions and the geographical context of western New York, providing a cohesive understanding of these features in the Book of Mormon."

I highlighted the part in the conclusion which says "clearer". Vincent did you want me to add more to ChatGPT from what you wrote? Let me know.

Also was thinking about population … [See discussion on problems with ancient population claims in the Bible and Book of Mormon; American land of Israel article. Determining the literary settings of the Bible and the Book of Mormon does not depend on archaeological proof of large Israelite populations in antiquity. This kind of evidence would help bolster the historicity of the written works; but proof of large, ancient Israelite populations is to a great extent a separate matter from determining the literary setting. Literary setting depends more on the relationships between the scriptural text and the covenant land described in it, and only to a lesser degree on the historicity of the human saga or account.]

The little Land of Israel situating between west and east inland seas.

Though there is little archaeological evidence supporting the Bible's demographic claims, the population densities in the land, early on, according to scripture, were astonishing! (Numbers 1:45-47, 2 Samuel 24:9, 1 Chronicles 21:5) Much sacred biblical history concentrates in this small land. The literary setting for the Book of Mormon is comparable in size and demographics to the biblical setting. The ultimate inheritance of Lehi's posterity, however, may not have been limited to the principal lands near the coast of “the west sea”. Nephite lands may have extended southward (i.e. south of Lake Erie) through open country and plains; limited only by the seasonal requirements of the Law of Moses. Hence “the south countries” (south of Lake Erie) mentioned in both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. (Mormon 6:15, LDS Doctrine and Covenants 75:8)

To: Romolo Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen On Wed., Jul. 3, 2024, 9:26 a.m. Vincent Coon, <...> wrote:

Thank You my friend in land northward! I have briefly come home from work to pick up my laptop and to have a little breakfast. I’m delighted to see the response! Without getting into elevation changes, I wonder if now, AI would consider a portion of the east-west running linear Onondaga escarpment as a plausible natural feature representing the dividing line between the land of Desolation to the north [of] the line (escarpment) and the land of Bountiful on the line (escarpment) and to the south?

Desolation on the north, and Bountiful “up” on the south of the linear escarpment. (Alma 22:31; consider also Mormon 2:29; 3:5-8, 10, 14-16)

From: Romolo Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2024 10:19 AM To: Vincent Coon Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting ( Population thoughts)

So here is what I fed into Ai: Is it plausible that a portion of the east-west(line) running Onondaga escarpment is a natural feature representing the dividing line between the land of Desolation to the north of the escarpment and the land of Bountiful on the line (escarpment) to the south?

[6]

"Yes, it is plausible that a portion of the east-west-running Onondaga Escarpment could represent the dividing line between the land of Desolation to the north and the land of Bountiful to the south in the context of the Book of Mormon geography. Here's an analysis of why this interpretation could be fitting:

Geographical Context

1. Onondaga Escarpment:

o The Onondaga Escarpment is a prominent geological feature running east-west across western and central New York.

o It is a limestone ridge that can serve as a natural boundary, distinguishing different geographical regions.

Scriptural Context

1. Land of Desolation and Land of Bountiful:

o The Book of Mormon describes the land of Desolation as being north of the land of Bountiful (Alma 22:31-32).

o There is a clear delineation between these two lands, with the land of Bountiful described as fertile and the land of Desolation as more barren.

Plausibility of the Onondaga Escarpment as the Dividing Line

1. Natural Boundary:

o The escarpment is a significant natural feature that could logically serve as a boundary between two distinct lands.

o Its prominence and the change in terrain it represents could make it an effective dividing line.

2. East-West Orientation:

o The east-west orientation of the escarpment aligns with the directional descriptions in the Book of Mormon, where the lands are often described in relation to each other in cardinal directions.

3. Geographical Fit:

o North of the Onondaga Escarpment, the terrain becomes more rugged and less hospitable, fitting the description of the land of Desolation.

o South of the escarpment, the land is more fertile and conducive to agriculture, fitting the description of the land of Bountiful.

4. Strategic Considerations:

• The escarpment could also have served as a strategic defensive line, which is a common theme in the Book of Mormon's descriptions of land divisions and military strategies.

Conclusion

Given its prominent east-west orientation and the clear change in terrain it represents, the Onondaga Escarpment is a plausible natural feature that could represent the dividing line between the land of Desolation to the north and the land of Bountiful to the south. This interpretation aligns well with both the geographical and scriptural context provided by the Book of Mormon."

Vincent Coon <…> 7/3/2024 9:51 PM To: Romolo Cc: Ed Goble; T McKnight; Ryan Larsen

Splendid Romolo! Thank you for being such a meaningful messenger and for serving so well as a witness.

So here is where we stand: Starting with (1) the land Cumorah being where LDS scripture says it is (LDS D&C 128:20), AI posits that what we now call Lake Ontario really could be (2) the extant remnant of “the waters of Ripliancum”. (3) The Book of Mormon “west sea” is most likely Great Lake Erie. (4) The “narrow neck of land” fits the Niagara Peninsula (Geologists know it to really be an isthmus). (5) The more distant “land northward” featuring “large bodies of water and many rivers”, including a land bordered in each of the four Israelite directions by inland seas fits Ontario Canada. (6) The “narrow pass” clearly fits the Batavia Moraine passing through the remnants of ancient Lake Tonawanda. (7) An east-west portion of the Onondaga Escarpment fits “the line Bountiful” with the land of Desolation immediately north of this natural line.

So the northern edge of the land Bountiful extends inland from Lake Erie (across from the southern edge of the Niagara Peninsula) eastward (following the Onondaga Escarpment) about a day and a half journey (~ 40 miles). The land of Zarahemla is south of Bountiful, and the land of Nephi is south of Zarahemla.

Could something natural also form the southern boundary of Bountiful? What could that something be? Once you cross that natural something you are in the land of Zarahemla. Likewise something natural forms the southern border of the land of Zarahemla – a “narrow strip of wilderness” (Alma 22:27). South of that is the land of Nephi.

On Tue., Jul. 9, 2024, 2:23 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Hi Romolo! When you can, would you please help me by inputting the following:

Would AI ChatGPT please comment on the possibility that the Buffalo River and its tributary Cayuga Creek form the southern border of the land Bountiful? Here is an introduction and numbered list of pertinent considerations:

Introduction:

It seems plausible that the Book of Mormon land of Bountiful should have natural northern and southern boundaries running “from the east unto the west sea [Lake Erie]” (Alma 22:33); and that on the south, those borders are the Buffalo River and its tributary Cayuga Creek? (Helaman 4:5-7, 3 Nephi 3:23) This means that the southern fortified “line” of Bountiful that was “a day’s journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their north country” (Helaman 4:6-7) may have followed a natural boundary, i.e. a creek or river.

If Cayuga Creek is a southern boundary of Bountiful, could “the land which was between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful” (3 Nephi 3:23, Helaman 4:5) be the land between Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek? Buffalo Creek is the more southern tributary of the Buffalo River. This would mean that the eastern end of the land Bountiful is immediately north of Cayuga Creek which flows into Buffalo River further west. The western end of Bountiful, then, would be immediately north of the Buffalo River; extending northward to the Onondaga Escarpment “line”. (3 Nephi 3:23) The source of present day Cayuga Creek is in the vicinity of Tonawanda Creek. The following considerations may be helpful:

1. In ancient times a chain of lakes stood in the vicinity of northward flowing Tonawanda creek. (Bulletin of the Geological Society of America, Vol. 10, Tonawanda Valley, 32-34) Is it plausible that one of these lakes (near present day Attica, NY) could have formed an eastern boundary of Bountiful? The presence of this lake at the eastern end of Bountiful may help explain why the southern fortified “line” of Bountiful extended but a day’s journey inland from “the west sea” (Lake Erie, Helaman 4:7), whereas the northern line was “the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea [Lake Erie]” (Alma 22:32).

2. The belief that many North American rivers were once inland seas or lakes was discussed in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s day. (Josiah Priest, American Antiquities, 1833 edition, pp. 360-367) The Book of Mormon simply follows the King James Old Testament convention of referring to lakes (large inland bodies of water) as seas.

3. Geologist Frank Leverett notes the existence of "beaches" left by ancient inland seas or lakes in western New York. (Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins, PL. III) Consider the geographic context of the expression “in the borders on the beach by the seashore” in Alma 51:32.

4. According to Leverett there was a lake at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor. This is the location of what is now a watery valley in the Java Lake region. (Leverett, Frank, Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins, pp. 210-213) Centuries ago this watery region may have fed Tonawanda Creek/River (with its connected lakes) as it flowed northward into Lake Tonawanda. The same watery region (including what is now Beaver Meadow and Gallagher Swamp) may have also supplied additional water to Buffalo Creek/River.

5. There is a chain of lakeshores (seashores) extending northward along the Tonawanda Creek corridor from the eastern inland sea (ancient lake in the Java Lake region). These lakes are now reduced to marshes.

6. The Clarendon Linden Fault runs more or less parallel with the Tonawanda Creek corridor. (3 Nephi 8:9; 9:4)

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Romolo Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 5:49 PM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting ( Population thoughts)

Hi Vincent,

I just provided the simple question to Ai, let me know if you want me to provide further info to challenge any ideas.

"Would you please comment on the possibility that the Buffalo River and its tributary Cayuga Creek form the southern border of the land Bountiful?"

[7]

"The idea that the Buffalo River and its tributary, Cayuga Creek, form the southern border of the land Bountiful is an interesting proposition and warrants consideration. Here's an analysis based on geographical and scriptural context:

Geographical Context

1. Buffalo River and Cayuga Creek:

o The Buffalo River flows through western New York, emptying into Lake Erie at the city of Buffalo.

o Cayuga Creek is a tributary that joins the Buffalo River and runs through the region.

2. Natural Boundaries:

o Rivers and creeks often serve as natural boundaries in historical and ancient contexts due to their distinct geographical separation and the difficulty of crossing them.

Scriptural Context

1. Land of Bountiful:

o In the Book of Mormon, the land of Bountiful is described as a fertile and resource-rich area (Alma 22:29-33).

o The land of Bountiful is often described as being situated south of the land of Desolation and plays a strategic role in the narratives.

2. Strategic Importance:

o The southern border of the land of Bountiful would have strategic significance, acting as a line of defense and a demarcation between territories.

Plausibility of the Buffalo River and Cayuga Creek as the Southern Border

1. Geographical Fit:

The Buffalo River and Cayuga Creek run through an area that could logically serve as a southern boundary. Their natural course would create a clear and defensible line.

2. Fertility and Resource Availability:

The areas surrounding these water bodies are known for their fertile lands, which aligns with the description of the land of Bountiful as being rich and productive.

3. Strategic and Defensive Considerations:

Using the Buffalo River and Cayuga Creek as natural barriers would be consistent with the strategic use of natural features in ancient times.

These water bodies would provide a defensible boundary, difficult for enemies to cross without notice.

Proximity to Other Key Features:

The Buffalo River and Cayuga Creek are situated near other significant geographical features, such as Lake Erie, which is mentioned as a large body of water to the south of the land of Bountiful.

This fits within the broader regional geography described in the Book of Mormon.

Conclusion

The possibility that the Buffalo River and its tributary Cayuga Creek form the southern border of the land Bountiful is plausible. The geographical characteristics of these water bodies align well with the scriptural descriptions of the land of Bountiful as fertile and strategically significant. Their natural courses provide clear and defensible boundaries, which would have been important in the historical and scriptural context. This interpretation fits within the broader geographical and strategic framework described in the Book of Mormon."

On Wed., Jul. 10, 2024, 5:44 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

THANKS Romolo! So AI affirms that Buffalo River and its northern tributary Cayuga Creek could together form the southern boundary of Bountiful. But the Book of Mormon states that there was land between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful? The next question to ask is:

If Cayuga Creek is a southern boundary of Bountiful, could “the land which was between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful” (3 Nephi 3:23, Helaman 4:5) be the land between Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek (the southern tributary of the Buffalo River)?

THANK YOU in advance!

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Romolo Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2024 8:32 PM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting ( Population thoughts)

Here's what it says back:

[8]

"The suggestion that the land between Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek (the southern tributary of the Buffalo River) could be "the land which was between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful" (3 Nephi 3:23, Helaman 4:5) is a plausible interpretation. Let's explore this further:

Geographical Context:

1. Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek:

o Cayuga Creek runs through western New York and joins the Buffalo River.

o Buffalo Creek is another tributary that feeds into the Buffalo River, flowing to the south of Cayuga Creek.

2. Natural Features:

• These creeks create natural boundaries within the region.

• The land between them could be considered a distinct geographical area, suitable for the description of a land situated between two larger territories.

Scriptural Context:

1. Land Between Zarahemla and Bountiful:

o In the Book of Mormon, the land between Zarahemla and Bountiful is mentioned as a region separating two significant territories.

o This intermediary land serves as a strategic and defensive location (Helaman 4:5, 3 Nephi 3:23).

Plausibility of the Land Between Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek:

1. Geographical Fit:

o The area between Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek is a distinct region that could logically serve as the intermediary land.

o This area would have been strategically significant, acting as a buffer zone between major territories.

2. Strategic Importance:

• The intermediary land mentioned in the scriptures often played a critical role in defense and warfare.

• The land between Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek, with its natural boundaries and proximity to the Buffalo River, would be strategically important for controlling movement between the regions.

3. Fertility and Habitation:

-This area is fertile and suitable for habitation, aligning with the descriptions of lands in the Book of Mormon.

-The availability of water from the creeks would support agriculture and settlement.

Conclusion:

The land between Cayuga Creek and Buffalo Creek in western New York is a plausible candidate for "the land which was between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Bountiful" as described in the Book of Mormon. This interpretation fits the geographical and strategic descriptions provided in the scriptures. The natural boundaries created by the creeks make this area a distinct and significant region, aligning with the intermediary land's role as a strategic buffer zone between major territories."

On Fri., Jul. 12, 2024, 9:44 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Splendid! I’m very much indebted to you Romolo. Thank you for patiently proceeding “line upon line” with this covenant land outline. We are about to propose to AI that Buffalo Creek/River could be the Book of Mormon “river Sidon”. But before we do that, let[']s spend a little more time asking about what could have been on the eastern end of Bountiful. We next want to ask the following (along with eight items of consideration)[:]

Is it plausible that the presence of an ancient lake at the eastern end of Bountiful may help explain why the fortified southern “line” of Bountiful extended just a day’s journey inland from “the west sea” (Lake Erie, Helaman 4:7), whereas the northern Bountiful line (on the Onondaga Escarpment) was “the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea [Lake Erie]” (Alma 22:32)?

The following considerations may be helpful:

1. The source of present day Cayuga Creek is in the vicinity of northward flowing Tonawanda Creek.

2. The belief that many North American rivers were once inland seas or lakes was discussed in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s day. See Josiah Priest, American Antiquities, 1833 edition, pp. 360-367.

3. The Book of Mormon simply follows the King James Old Testament convention of referring to lakes (large inland bodies of water) as seas.

4. In ancient times, a chain of lakes stood in the vicinity of Tonawanda creek. (Bulletin of the Geological Society of America, Vol. 10, Tonawanda Valley, 32-34) One of these lakes was near present day Attica, NY.

5. Geologist Frank Leverett notes the existence of "beaches" left by ancient inland seas or lakes in western New York. (Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins, PL. III) Consider the geographic context of the expression “in the borders on the beach by the seashore” in Alma 51:32.

6. According to Leverett there was also a lake at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor. This is the location of what is now a watery valley in the Java Lake region. (Leverett, Frank, Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins, pp. 210-213) Centuries ago this watery region may have fed Tonawanda Creek/River with its connected lakes, including the lake near Attica NY. So there was a chain of lakeshores (seashores) extending northward along the Tonawanda Creek corridor from the ancient lake in the Java Lake region. Some of these lakes are now reduced to marshes.

7. The same watery region (including what is now Beaver Meadow and Gallagher Swamp) may have also supplied additional water to Buffalo Creek/River.

8. The Clarendon Linden Fault runs more or less parallel with the Tonawanda Creek corridor. (3 Nephi 8:9; 9:4)

From: Romolo Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2024 9:47 PM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting ( Population thoughts)

 👌 

So I typed your question in bold. Here is the response.

[9]

Yes, it is plausible that the presence of an ancient lake at the eastern end of the land Bountiful may help explain the differences in the extent of the fortified lines described in the Book of Mormon. Let's examine the reasons why this could be the case:

Geographical and Scriptural Context

1. Helaman 4:7:

o Describes a fortified southern line of Bountiful extending just a day’s journey inland from the "west sea" (Lake Erie).

2. Alma 22:32:

o Describes the northern line of Bountiful as being a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, from the east to the west sea (Lake Erie).

The Role of the Ancient Lake

1. Ancient Lake at the Eastern End:

o The presence of an ancient lake, potentially Lake Tonawanda or other prehistoric lakes in the region, would have created a significant geographical barrier at the eastern end of Bountiful.

o Such a lake would naturally limit the extent to which fortifications could be constructed and might reduce the need for extensive fortifications in that area due to the natural barrier provided by the lake.

2. Strategic Considerations:

o Natural barriers such as lakes are strategic assets that can be used to fortify borders without the need for extensive man-made defenses.

o The ancient lake would make it difficult for enemy forces to traverse the region, thereby justifying a shorter fortified line to the south (only a day’s journey inland).

3. Northern Line of Bountiful:

o The northern line, described as being a day and a half’s journey, suggests a longer and more extensive fortification.

o This line likely required more significant defenses due to the absence of a comparable natural barrier in that region.

o The Onondaga Escarpment, running east to west, could serve as a natural boundary, but without a large body of water to enhance its defensibility, the fortifications would need to be more extensive.

Explanation of Differences in Fortified Lines

1. Southern Fortified Line:

The ancient lake at the eastern end of Bountiful likely made it unnecessary to extend fortifications further than a day's journey inland.

The lake served as a natural fortification, reducing the need for human-made defenses.

2. Northern Fortified Line:

Without a significant water barrier, the northern line required more extensive fortifications, extending a day and a half’s journey to ensure adequate defense against potential threats from the land of Desolation to the north.

The Onondaga Escarpment, though providing some natural defensibility, would still require additional fortifications due to its longer expanse and the absence of a large water barrier.

Conclusion

The presence of an ancient lake at the eastern end of Bountiful provides a plausible explanation for the difference in the extent of the fortified southern and northern lines of Bountiful as described in the Book of Mormon. The natural barrier created by the lake would reduce the need for extensive fortifications to the south, while the northern line would require more significant defenses due to the absence of such a barrier. This interpretation aligns with the geographical and strategic context provided by the scriptures.

On Sat., Jul. 13, 2024, 11:44 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

THANK YOU MUCH Romolo! I think we are ready to ask AI if Buffalo Creek/River is a plausible candidate for the Book of Mormon “river Sidon”. The “river Sidon” is a kind of American version of the Biblical “river Kishon” (Judges 5:20-22) a creek/river that carried the dead bodies of warriors out to sea (an inland sea). There is no mention of the river Sidon flowing through lands north of Zarahemla. The land of Zarahemla “was nearly surrounded by water” (Alma 22:32). The “waters of Sidon” may have helped form the borders of the land of Zarahemla (Mormon 1:10).

By comparison, the much longer and more eastern Genesee River, may be the implicitly named Book of Mormon river “Jordan” near the northern “city of Jordan” (Mormon 5:3). The Genesee River flows northward through Jaredite territory to the “waters of Ripliancum” (Lake Ontario/Iroquois). The Hebrew meaning of Jordan implies a river flowing down or descending. It has the same root as the name “Jared”. “Sidon” (meaning fishery of catchery), on the otherhand [other hand], may have turned westward after flowing along the eastern border of the land of Zarahemla, to finally flow out to the “west sea” (Lake Erie). Near the mouth of Sidon, there could have been a Nephite port town, analogues to Sidon on the coast of the Mediterranean. Today, “exceeding large” vessels (Alma 63:5) are moored near the mouth of Buffalo River! I can pose the question(s) more formally if you like?

On Wed., Jul. 17, 2024, 12:31 a.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Two Book of Mormon river candidates for AI (ChatGPT) to comment on:

Is Buffalo Creek/River then a plausible candidate for the Book of Mormon “river Sidon, which ran by the land of Zarahemla” (Alma 2:15), and which also may have demarcated its northern “borders” (Mormon 1:10)?

If “the river Sidon” is Buffalo Creek/River, could the more eastern Genesee River be the river implicitly named “Jordan”, there being a northern city named after it (Mormon 5:3)?

The following considerations help make the case:

1. The Book of Mormon “river Sidon” is arguably a kind of American version of the Biblical “river Kishon” (Judges 5:20-22). Kishon is a brook/river that at some places is crossable on foot. Like the river Sidon, the Kishon is renowned for carrying the dead bodies of warriors out to sea (western sea) in ancient times. Compare the biblical river Kishon with the river Sidon (Alma 2:27, 34-35; 3:3; 6:7; 16:6-76, 44:22).

2. There is no mention of the river Sidon flowing through lands north of Zarahemla. The land of Zarahemla “was nearly surrounded by water” (Alma 22:32). The “waters of Sidon” could have helped form the borders of the land of Zarahemla (Mormon 1:10).

3. The head of the river Sidon was in the southeastern Nephite hill country by Manti (Alma 22:27; 43:22). Therefore it did not flow through the land of Nephi further south (Alma 50:11).

4. “Sidon” (meaning fishery) may have turned westward after flowing along the eastern border of the land of Zarahemla, to finally flow out to the “west sea” (Lake Erie). Near the mouth of Sidon, there could have been a Nephite port town, analogues to Sidon on the coast of the Mediterranean. In modern times, “exceeding large” vessels (reminiscent of Alma 63:5), are moored near the mouth of Buffalo River.

A catamaran, a “large ship” compared to most single hulled canoes, launches out into the “west sea” (Lake Erie) from the mouth of “Sidon” (Buffalo River), at the southern border of the “land Bountiful” - by the “narrow neck” (Niagara Isthmus seen in the distance, Alma 63:5)

5. By comparison, the head of the Genesee River is far to the south in Pennsylvania. The much longer and more eastern Genesee River could have been the “Jordan”. This river is implied by “the city of Jordan” (Mormon 5:3) that was likely near its banks.

6. The Genesee River flows northward through Jaredite territory to the “waters of Ripliancum” (Lake Ontario/Iroquois). The ancient meaning of Jordan suggests a river flowing down or descending. It is a fitting name for a river! It has the same root as the name “Jared”. The river appropriately flows down across the Jaredite plains south of Lake Ontario.

7. The “city of Jordan” was probably eastward from “the city of Desolation”. After retreating into “the north countries”, the Nephites likely fled eastward towards the Genesee River, and then beyond “Jordan”, to the land of Cumorah (Mormon 4:17-23; 5:1[-3]; 6:1-2).

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Romolo Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2024 12:02 AM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting ( Population thoughts)

Hi Vincent,

Hope this helps 🙏

Is Buffalo Creek/River then a plausible candidate for the Book of Mormon “river Sidon, which ran by the land of Zarahemla” (Alma 2:15), and which also may have demarcated its northern “borders” (Mormon 1:10)? If “the river Sidon” is Buffalo Creek/River, could the more eastern Genesee River be the river implicitly named “Jordan”, there being a northern city named after it (Mormon 5:3)?

[10]

Buffalo Creek/River as the River Sidon

1. Geographical Context:

o The Buffalo River flows through western New York, emptying into Lake Erie.

o This river could potentially align with the description of the River Sidon, which runs by the land of Zarahemla.

2. Scriptural Context:

o Alma 2:15: The River Sidon is described as running by the land of Zarahemla and being a significant geographical feature in Nephite battles.

o Mormon 1:10: The River Sidon is mentioned in the context of marking northern borders.

3. Plausibility:

o The Buffalo River flows through a fertile and strategic region, which could align with the description of Zarahemla.

o Its position could make it a natural border for the northern parts of the land of Zarahemla.

4. Considerations:

o The River Sidon is often depicted as a major river, which would need to match the scale and significance of the Buffalo River in its regional context.

o The river's path and surrounding topography need to be consistent with the battle descriptions and settlements mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

[10a]

Genesee River as the River Jordan

1. Geographical Context:

o The Genesee River is located in western New York and flows northward, eventually emptying into Lake Ontario.

o This river is further east compared to the Buffalo River and runs through significant terrain that could align with other scriptural locations.

2. Scriptural Context:

o Mormon 5:3: References a city named Jordan, suggesting there might be a river nearby implicitly named Jordan.

o The River Jordan could serve as a notable geographical feature in the context of Nephite and Lamanite movements and settlements.

3. Plausibility:

o The Genesee River's northward flow and its prominence in the region make it a plausible candidate for the River Jordan.

o The river’s proximity to known ancient settlements and routes could support its identification with a significant river mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

4. Considerations:

o The exact naming and identification of rivers in the Book of Mormon require correlation with both geographical and historical context.

o The relative positions of cities, rivers, and strategic points need to be consistent with the descriptions in the scripture.

Conclusion

1. Buffalo Creek/River as the River Sidon: The Buffalo River could plausibly be identified as the River Sidon, given its strategic importance and geographical alignment with the land of Zarahemla. It would serve as a significant natural boundary and feature in the region.

2. Genesee River as the River Jordan: The Genesee River, further east, could be a plausible candidate for the implicitly named River Jordan, especially if there is a northern city named after it, as mentioned in Mormon 5:3.

Both identifications would require a thorough examination of geographical, historical, and scriptural contexts to confirm their plausibility fully. However, the suggested rivers align well with the scriptural descriptions and regional geography, making them strong candidates for the rivers mentioned in the Book of Mormon."

On Sat., Jul. 20, 2024, 10:58 a.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Wonderful! Thank you so very much Romolo! So based on the general location of the land Cumorah given in LDS scripture, we have a general idea of where that region is that the Book of Mormon describes as “a land of many waters …” (Finger Lakes region, south of Lake Ontario). This region is likely east of the Book of Mormon river “Jordan” (Genesee River), which is east of the principal lands of the Book of Mormon that extend a short distance inland from the coast of “the west sea” (Lake Erie). From N[n]orth to south, AI has outlined for us the plausible lands of Desolation, Bountiful, and now Zarahemla. AI also strongly fits the more distant “land northward” with its “large bodies of water and many rivers” in Ontario, Canada.

We need to ask about the east-west “narrow strip of wilderness” that divided the land of Zarahemla (north) from the land of Nephi (south). We also need to ask about the ancient eastern bodies of water that bordered Nephite and Lamanite territories, before we can say that we have adequately outlined the locations of the principal lands of the Book of Mormon.

We need to ask about the east-west “narrow strip of wilderness” that divided the land of Zarahemla (north) from the land of Nephi (south). We also need to ask about the ancient eastern bodies of water that bordered Nephite and Lamanite territories, before we can say that we have adequately outlined the locations of the principal lands of the Book of Mormon.

TODAH RABAH haveri! THANKS MUCH my friend!

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Vincent Coon Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2024 8:45 PM To: Romolo Subject: RE: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting ( Population thoughts)

Hi Romolo, the next three questions are aimed at completing the fit of the land of Zarahemla and starting the outline of the land of Nephi:

Inland seas on the east and “the narrow strip of wilderness”

The following considerations may be helpful for determining the location of the Book of Mormon “east sea” and the “narrow strip of wilderness” that divided the land of Nephi (south) from the land of Zarahemla (north):

1. In the Old World Promised Land setting there is more than one eastern “sea” connected by a river (i.e. the Jordan River). One of these inland seas (lakes) is sometimes called “the east sea” (Joel 2:20).

2. According to Geologist Frank Leverett, there was an ancient lake at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor. This is the location of what is now a watery valley, i.e. the Java Lake region. (Leverett, Frank, Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins, pp. 210-213) Centuries ago this region also fed Tonawanda River (with its connected lakes). That is, Tonawanda River flowed northward through a series of lakes into Lake Tonawanda. Today, the diminished watery region near the head of Cattaraugus Creek includes Java Lake,

Beaver Meadow and Gallagher Swamp.

3. Cattaraugus Creek flows from the Java Lake region westward to Lake Erie.

4. The Clarendon[-]Linden Fault runs more or less parallel with the Tonawanda Creek corridor and the eastern bodies of water in the Java Lake region.

5. Ancient Lake Genesee was about 10 miles east of the headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek.

Could it be that ancient Lake Genesee was “the sea, on the east” of greater Lamanite lands mentioned in Alma 22:27; whereas “the east sea” mentioned in Alma 50:8 refers to an ancient lake in the Java Lake region that was the source of the east to west running Cattaraugus River. This body of water was nearer (than Lake Genesee) to the headwaters of Buffalo Creek/River (the head of the river Sidon, Alma 22:29)?

Could “the narrow strip of wilderness” then be a narrow tract of land that included the Cattaraugus River Corridor and ran “in a straight course” (Alma 50:8) i.e. in the general direction of the Cattaraugus River “from the sea east even to the sea west”, hence the description of it “running from the east towards the west” (Alma 22:27)?

Could the Clarendon[-]Linden Fault account for the inundation of the earth and timber city of Moroni, which was “by the east sea” in the Java Lake region (Alma 50:13[14], 3 Nephi 8:9; 9:4, Alma 50:13)?

On Mon., Jul. 29, 2024, 4:51 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Hi Romolo! Your not responding has given me the chance to rewrite this important submission to AI:

The following inputs 1 through 6 may be helpful for ChatGPT to determining the location of the Book of Mormon’s “east sea” and the “narrow strip of wilderness” that divided the land of Nephi (south) from the land of Zarahemla (north):

1. In the Old World Promised Land setting there is more than one eastern “sea”. The biblical eastern seas are connected by a river - the Jordan River. One of these inland seas (lakes) is sometimes called “the east sea” (Ezekiel 47:18, Joel 2:20). The scripturally based Near Cumorah setting of the Book of Mormon could be somewhat analogues to the biblical setting.

2. According to Geologist Frank Leverett, there was an ancient lake at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor. This is the location of what is now a watery valley, i.e. the Java Lake region. (Leverett, Frank, Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins, pp. 210-213) Centuries ago this region also fed Tonawanda River with its connected lakes to the north. That is, Tonawanda River flowed northward through a series of lakes into Lake Tonawanda. Today, the diminished watery region near the head of Cattaraugus Creek includes Java Lake, Beaver Meadow and Gallagher Swamp.

3. The Java lake region is a short distance east of the headwaters of Buffalo Creek. The “east sea” of the Book of Mormon was not far from “the head of Sidon”. Consider Alma 56:25 in light of Alma 50:14; 51:24-26; 59:5-6.

4. The Clarendon[-]Linden Fault runs more or less parallel with the Tonawanda Creek corridor and the Java Lake region.

5. Cattaraugus Creek flows from the Java Lake region westward to Lake Erie.

6. Ancient Lake Genesee was about 10 miles east of the headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek/River. The headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek are near the head waters of Buffalo Creek.

Is it plausible that ancient Lake Genesee was “the sea, on the east” of greater Lamanite lands mentioned in Alma 22:27?

Is it plausible that the body of water specifically called “the east sea” (mentioned in Alma 50:8) refers to the ancient lake in the Java Lake region that was the source of the east to west running Cattaraugus River? This eastern body of water was much closer to the headwaters of Buffalo Creek/River (the head of the river Sidon, Alma 22:29; 50:11) than Lake Genesee.

Is it plausible that “the narrow strip of wilderness” that ran “in a straight course” (Alma 50:8) is the narrow tract that follows the general direction of the Cattaraugus River “from the sea east even to the sea west”, “running from the east towards the west” (Alma 22:27)?

Is it plausible that the Clarendon Linden Fault could account for the inundation of the earth and timber city of Moroni, which was “by the east sea” (Alma 50:13[14], 3 Nephi 8:9; 9:4, Alma 50:13)?

Sent from Mail for Windows

On Wed., Jul. 31, 2024, 10:10 p.m. Romolo, wrote:

Hi Vincent,

So far I have not been placing all the full data in, just portions to see what it says. I also thought we determined where the narrow strip of wilderness was. I'll try something tonight.

Romolo

From: Romolo Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2024 8:46 PM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting

So here is what I asked. Note I didn't provide all the info at first and it said best candidate for east sea was Lake Ontario. Then I provided all 6 of your points. 👍🏼👌 

"So far with what has been discussed where is the “east sea” and the “narrow strip of wilderness” that divided the land of Nephi (south) from the land of Zarahemla (north)?"

"To identify the "east sea" and the "narrow strip of wilderness" that divided the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla based on the discussions so far, we need to align the scriptural descriptions with the geographical context of the regions we've been discussing.

East Sea

1. Scriptural Context:

o The "east sea" is frequently mentioned in the Book of Mormon as a significant geographical boundary (Alma 50:13, Alma 22:27).

2. Geographical Interpretation:

o Given the context of western New York and the surrounding regions, the "east sea" could be interpreted as Lake Ontario, which lies to the northeast of the Finger Lakes and other prominent locations discussed.

o Alternatively, the east sea could be another large body of water located to the east or northeast of the land of Zarahemla and Bountiful. Narrow Strip of Wilderness 1.Scriptural Context:

o The "narrow strip of wilderness" is described as a natural barrier that runs from the east sea to the west sea, separating the land of Nephi (south) from the land of Zarahemla (north) (Alma 22:27).

o It is depicted as a rugged and difficult terrain that serves as a division between these two major lands.

2. Geographical Interpretation:

o The narrow strip of wilderness could be represented by the rugged terrain and forests found in the Allegheny Plateau and the Appalachian Mountains, which run from the northern part of Pennsylvania and extend into New York.

o This terrain would have created a natural barrier separating the southern areas (potentially representing the land of Nephi) from the northern regions (the land of Zarahemla). Plausibility 1.East Sea:

o Lake Ontario is a strong candidate for the "east sea" due to its size and location to the northeast of the Finger Lakes and the regions we've discussed as potentially aligning with Book of Mormon geography.

o This sea would serve as a significant geographical boundary on the eastern side of the lands described. " "

2. Narrow Strip of Wilderness:

The Allegheny Plateau and the Appalachian Mountains are plausible candidates for the "narrow strip of wilderness." These regions feature rugged and heavily forested terrain that would create a natural division.

• This area aligns well with the description of a wilderness strip running east to west, providing a clear and formidable boundary between two major lands.

Conclusion

• East Sea: Lake Ontario is the most plausible candidate for the "east sea" mentioned in the Book of Mormon, given its geographical prominence and location.

• Narrow Strip of Wilderness: The rugged terrain of the Allegheny Plateau and the Appalachian Mountains could represent the "narrow strip of wilderness" dividing the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla. This natural barrier would align well with the scriptural descriptions of a challenging and dividing landscape.

This interpretation fits well within the geographical context of western New York and the surrounding regions, providing a cohesive understanding of these key Book of Mormon locations."

"Here is some information that could help with the last question. "

"Great, please provide the additional information you have. It will help refine the analysis and ensure a more accurate alignment with the scriptural and geographical context."

"In the Old World Promised Land setting there is more than one eastern “sea”. The biblical eastern seas are connected by a river - the Jordan River. One of these inland seas (lakes) is sometimes called “the east sea” (Ezekiel 47:18. Joel 2:20). The scripturally based Near Cumorah setting of the Book of Mormon could be somewhat analogues to the biblical setting. According to Geologist Frank Leverett, there was an ancient lake at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor. This is the location of what is now a watery valley, i.e. the Java Lake region. (Leverett, Frank, Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins, pp. 210-213) Centuries ago this region also fed Tonawanda River with its connected lakes to the north. That is, Tonawanda River flowed northward through a series of lakes into Lake Tonawanda. Today, the diminished watery region near the head of Cattaraugus Creek includes Java Lake, Beaver Meadow and Gallagher Swamp. The Java lake region is a short distance east of the headwaters of Buffalo Creek. The “east sea” of the Book of Mormon was not far from “the head of Sidon”. Consider Alma 56:25 in light of Alma 50:14; 51:24-26; 59:5-6. The Clarendon Linden Fault runs more or less parallel with the Tonawanda Creek corridor and the Java Lake region. Cattaraugus Creek flows from the Java Lake region westward to Lake Erie. Ancient Lake Genesee was about 10 miles east of the headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek/River. The headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek are near the head waters of Buffalo Creek."

Beaver Meadow wetland exhibit – Rochester Museum and Science Center

Zoar Valley Canyon in the Cattaraugus River Corridor - “narrow strip of wilderness”. The east to west flowing Cattaraugus Creek is somewhat analogues to “nahal Qanah”, the creek or wadi that divides an inheritance of Manasseh from the more southern land of Ephraim in the biblical Land of Israel. In the Book of Mormon setting, north of the “narrow strip of wilderness”, the Desolation – Bountiful line is described as “only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite …” (Alma 22:32) This tacitly compares “the line Bountiful … from the east to the west sea” (Alma 22:32) with the distance along the “narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west …” previously mentioned in Alma 22:27. The “narrow strip of wilderness” (Cattaraugus river corridor) could take two to three days to travel on foot; nearly twice as long as the most northern Bountiful line.

[11]

"Thank you for providing additional information. This helps to create a clearer picture of how the geographical features align with the scriptural descriptions in the Book of Mormon. Based on this information, let's revisit the "east sea," "narrow strip of wilderness," and related geographical features:

East Sea

1. Scriptural Context:

o The "east sea" is mentioned in the Book of Mormon as a significant geographical boundary (Alma 50:13, Alma 22:27).

o In the Old Testament, the term "east sea" is used for significant bodies of water (Ezekiel 47:18, Joel 2:20).

2. Geographical Interpretation:

o The ancient lake at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor, as described by Frank Leverett, could be a plausible candidate for the "east sea."

o The Java Lake region, along with Beaver Meadow and Gallagher Swamp, represents remnants of this ancient lake system.

o This area is consistent with the scriptural context of a significant water body to the east.

River Sidon and the East Sea

1. Connection to River Sidon:

o The proximity of the Java Lake region to the headwaters of Buffalo Creek suggests that this ancient lake system could be connected to the River Sidon.

o The headwaters of Buffalo Creek being near the headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek align with the idea that the "east sea" was not far from the "head of Sidon."

2. Geographical Context:

o The ancient lake at the head of the Cattaraugus River Corridor flowing into the Tonawanda River and eventually into Lake Tonawanda fits the description of interconnected bodies of water, similar to the Jordan River connecting biblical seas.

Narrow Strip of Wilderness

1. Scriptural Context:

o The "narrow strip of wilderness" is described as a natural barrier separating the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla (Alma 22:27).

2. Geographical Interpretation:

o The rugged terrain and watery regions around the Java Lake and the headwaters of the Cattaraugus and Buffalo Creeks could represent this narrow strip of wilderness.

o The Clarendon Linden Fault, running parallel to these features, adds to the geographical complexity, making it a natural division." "

Clarendon Linden Fault and Tonawanda Creek Corridor

1. Geological Features:

o The Clarendon Linden Fault runs parallel to the Tonawanda Creek Corridor and the Java Lake region, indicating a significant geographical boundary.

o This fault line could contribute to the rugged terrain described as the narrow strip of wilderness.

Plausibility

1. East Sea:

o The ancient lake system in the Java Lake region, near the headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek, is a plausible candidate for the "east sea" mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

2. Narrow Strip of Wilderness:

o The rugged, swampy terrain between the headwaters of Buffalo Creek and the Java Lake region, coupled with the Clarendon Linden Fault, fits the description of the narrow strip of wilderness separating the lands of Nephi and Zarahemla.

Conclusion

Based on the information provided:

• East Sea: The ancient lake at the eastern end of the Cattaraugus River Corridor (Java Lake region) is a strong candidate for the "east sea" mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

• Narrow Strip of Wilderness: The rugged, watery region around the Java Lake, Cattaraugus Creek, and Buffalo Creek headwaters, influenced by the Clarendon Linden Fault, is a plausible representation of the narrow strip of wilderness separating the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla.

This interpretation aligns well with the geographical and geological features described, providing a cohesive understanding of these key Book of Mormon locations."

"What time period was the Java Lake [the ancient lake in the region]?"

"The Java Lake region and its related ancient lake systems, as discussed by geologist Frank Leverett, are primarily associated with the glacial and post-glacial periods. This would place the existence of such lakes in the late Pleistocene to early Holocene epochs, roughly between 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, when glacial meltwaters formed numerous lakes and wetlands in the northeastern United States.

Java Lake and Related Features

• Late Pleistocene Epoch:

o Approximately 2.58 million to 11,700 years ago.

o During this time, extensive glaciation covered much of North America.

o As the glaciers began to retreat towards the end of the Pleistocene, meltwater formed large lakes and wetlands, including those in the Java Lake region.

• Early Holocene Epoch:

o Approximately 11,700 years ago to the present.

o Continued glacial melting and geological adjustments led to the formation and eventual drainage of these ancient lakes.

o The Java Lake region would have been significantly influenced by these processes, leading to the development of its current geographical features.

Geologist Frank Leverett's Findings

• Leverett's work, particularly in "Glacial Formations and Drainage Features of the Erie and Ohio Basins," provides detailed descriptions of these glacial formations and the resultant drainage features, such as the ancient lakes in the Cattaraugus River Corridor.

• These formations would have existed during and shortly after the last glacial maximum, which occurred around 20,000 years ago, with significant changes continuing through the late Pleistocene and into the Holocene.

Implications for Book of Mormon Geography

• The presence of an ancient lake system in the Java Lake region during this time period provides a plausible setting for the "east sea" described in the Book of Mormon.

• Although the exact time periods mentioned in the Book of Mormon (circa 600 BC to 400 AD) are much later than the primary existence of these glacial lakes, the remnants and influences of these ancient lakes could still be evident in the geography and hydrology of the region.

• This could explain why the area around the Java Lake region, including the headwaters of Cattaraugus Creek and Buffalo Creek, played a significant role in the described landscapes and boundaries." "

Conclusion

The ancient Java Lake and its related features existed primarily during the late Pleistocene to early Holocene epochs, roughly 10,000 to 15,000 years ago. This time frame is significantly earlier than the events described in the Book of Mormon. However, the lasting impact of these glacial formations on the region's geography provides a plausible context for understanding the "east sea" and the surrounding terrain as described in the scriptural accounts."

On Wed., Jul. 31, 2024, 11:58 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Lake Ontario as the east sea is ridiculous, and contradicts previous plausible scenarios. There is a reason I gave the inputs with scriptures and other citations. The east sea is near the headwaters of Sidon by the southern dividing line between the land of Zarahemla and Nephi. The east sea is near the southeastern quarter of the land of Zarahemla not far from Manti. It is important not to confuse the east sea with other eastern bodies of water. Lake Ontario is north of Desolation, Bountiful, Zarahemla and Nephi. What is going on? The Allegheny Plateau is certainly not a narrow strip of wilderness that runs from the east sea by the head of Sidon to the west sea. It is a huge hilly mountainous plateau that does not stem from the Atlantic Ocean (a better choice for the east sea than Lake Ontario). The east sea in the Bible is the Salt Sea (Gentiles call the Dead Sea). Lake Ontario, you recall is the waters of Ripliancum north of Cumorah and the land of many waters.

Romolo, when you don’t constrain AI with the right inputs (e.g. scriptures and geological, hydrological inputs) you invite non-sense. Remember the non-sense we have gotten before? Look up the scripture I included and see if they corroborate northern Lake Ontario as the east sea. AI may be insensitive to the fact that relative expression like “sea east” or “sea on the east” does not name the sea, where as “east sea” in the Bible and the Book of Mormon is a name.

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Romolo Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2024 10:00 PM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting

Hi Vincent, Keep reading,

I did place your inputs 👍🏼

On Thu., Aug. 1, 2024, 12:13 a.m. Vincent Coon, <… > wrote:

Splendid! THANK YOU for helping me endure to the end! The fact is, even though the lakes we have been discussing formed in prehistoric times, their remnants in some sense, persist to this day.

Bless you!

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Romolo Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2024 10:16 PM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting

I wanted to see what it would say without your inputs. You are welcome. I'll let you dive into the info 😉 Always happy to read your thoughts.

Todah Rabah,

Romolo

On Sat., Aug. 3, 2024, 11:08 p.m. Vincent Coon, <…> wrote:

Romolo, I’m indebted to you! I think we are about done outlining the principal lands of the Book of Mormon’s American setting. We could ask about “the waters of Mormon” (Mosiah 18:8), we could ask about “the land of Helam” (Mosiah 23:20), we could ask about ‘[“]the water of Sebus” (Alma 17:26) etc. All of these, Sister Olive and I believe have plausible candidates in the region. But let[‘]s conclude by returning full circle to the “land of many waters, rivers, and fountains [springs, waterfalls]” - the Finger Lakes region; where according to scripture, “Cumorah” resides (Mormon 6:4, LDS D&C 128:20). And let’s finally ask:

Given the fact that an arm of ancient Lake Iroquois (Ontario), penetrated into western NY east of “Cumorah” (Mormon 6:6), east of “the hill Ramah” (Ether 15:8-11) and formed an inland sea that extended northward from what is now Cayuga Lake.[;] And given that remains of this ancient inland sea exist today as Montezuma Marsh western NY.[,] Is it plausible that “the seashore” that the archaic Jaredite king Omer arrived at after traveling “eastward” from “the place where the Nephites were destroyed [Cumorah]” (Ether 9:3) was a shore of this inland body of water (arm of ancient Lake Iroquois engulfing what is now Montezuma Marsh and Cayuga Lake)?

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Romolo Sent: Saturday, Aug. 3, 2024 10:52 PM To: Vincent Coon Subject: Re: AI and the Authentic Literary Setting

Hi Vincent,

Just last week we traveled through the Finger Lakes to go to the priesthood restoration site. Was amazing. On the way from Peter Whitmer Farm to there we passed and saw an amazing natural gorge and falls Taughannock Falls. Was Incredible. I could picture that as a site known to the Book of Mormon people. I wonder what the early American settlers or even Joseph Smith thought of it? Ever heard of it?

Ill let you know this week when in [I] enter the info.

Blessings to you, and thank you for including me in this great research. You list off the Book of Mormon places, I feel like, wow, I would like to be able to list off these places 😀

Romolo

On Sun., Aug. 4, 2024, 2:39 p.m. Vincent Coon, <… > wrote

I know about the water falls in Tompkins County western NY:

I linked to this in [Hampton Sides, THIS IS NOT THE PLACE]

I really believe that these falls could be among the “fountains” in the “land of many waters, rivers, and fountains” referred to in Mormon 6:4.

And you have been there and seen it! I have not see these falls yet with my own eyes. We passed them by. As for what the early saint[s] thought or knew, I can tell you that the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants actually calls the native peoples living on the reservations near Lake Erie “Lamanites”. So you have recently been traveling though true lands of the Book of Mormon.

THANKS for sharing!

Sent from Mail for Windows

On Fri., Aug. 9, 2024, 7:36 p.m. Vincent Coon, <… > wrote:

Hi Romolo! You had to have been near Montezuma Marsh, just north of Seneca lake [Cayuga lake], just east of Cumorah. This is the eastern seashore that Sister Olive and I believe king Omer arrived at (Ether 9:3). Taughannock Falls is southward from this seashore.

Sent from Mail for Windows

On Wed., Aug. 14, 2024, 6:17 p.m. Romolo, <…> wrote:

Hi Vincent 👋 

Sorry again for the delay my friend.

Here was the response

[12]

"Given the geographical and scriptural context, the possibility that the "seashore" where the Jaredite king Omer arrived after traveling "eastward" from "the place where the Nephites were destroyed [Cumorah]" (Ether 9:3) refers to a shore of an inland body of water, such as the arm of ancient Lake Iroquois that engulfed what is now the Montezuma Marsh and Cayuga Lake, is plausible. Here's why:

Ancient Lake Iroquois and Its Extent

• Lake Iroquois was a proglacial lake that existed during the last Ice Age, roughly 13,000 to 10,000 years ago. It was the precursor to present-day Lake Ontario but was significantly larger.

• An arm of ancient Lake Iroquois is believed to have extended into western New York, reaching as far as the area east of "Cumorah" (Mormon 6:6), where the Nephites were destroyed. This arm of the lake likely covered areas now represented by the Montezuma Marsh and Cayuga Lake.

• As the glaciers retreated, Lake Iroquois gradually drained, leaving behind remnants such as the Montezuma Marsh, which is a large wetland area near the northern end of Cayuga Lake.

Scriptural Context

• Ether 9:3 mentions that King Omer, after fleeing eastward, arrived at a seashore. This seashore could plausibly be the shore of an inland sea, especially if we consider the ancient geography of the region.

• The text indicates that Omer traveled "eastward" from the area associated with the Nephite destruction, identified as Cumorah or the hill Ramah. This suggests that the body of water he encountered was to the east of this location.

Geographical Alignment

• The Montezuma Marsh and Cayuga Lake area, located east of the Finger Lakes and the proposed hill Cumorah, would align with the "eastward" direction described in the Book of Mormon.

• The remnants of the ancient inland sea, including the Montezuma Marsh, could have been significant enough in ancient times to be referred to as a "seashore" in the scriptural account.

Conclusion

• The identification of the "seashore" in Ether 9:3 with the shore of an ancient inland body of water, such as the arm of Lake Iroquois that extended into what is now the Montezuma Marsh and Cayuga Lake, is indeed plausible.

• The geographical features and their alignment with the scriptural description support this interpretation, making it a reasonable hypothesis within the context of the Book of Mormon's geography."